Welcome back to Student Success: Built by Design, where our panel of experts discuss the overlap of architecture and education, and how both intersect in the multifaceted concept of Student Success. Joining the discussion are Dr. Joel Peterson, Aurora Ayala, Jennifer Gibb, Andrea Stalker, and Jeff Johnson, who share their unique perspectives on how built environments, facilities management, and inclusive design contribute to better educational outcomes. In this episode, we dive into the foundational levels of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs - both the Physiological needs and the Safety needs. Including how clean air, water, shelter, lighting, accessibility, and secure circulation all contribute to the creation of both real safety and also the perception of safety, which can be equally as important. Our experts share real stories from their years in the field of instances of these sorts of challenges that they had to address. Examples include motion-sensor lighting and fencing to address hidden, dark campus areas, and learning lessons in HVAC/air-quality, such as HEPA filtration balanced against staffing and lifecycle maintenance constraints. The group highlights crime prevention through environmental design, district design standards, and joint collaboration among architects, builders, facilities, and campus police to ensure constructability, code compliance, and maintainability without accidentally creating “bunker-like” spaces in the process. The Student Success: Built by Design is a production of San Diego Community College District and is produced by University FM.
Welcome back to Student Success: Built by Design, where our panel of experts discuss the overlap of architecture and education, and how both intersect in the multifaceted concept of Student Success. Joining the discussion are Dr. Joel Peterson, Aurora Ayala, Jennifer Gibb, Andrea Stalker, and Jeff Johnson, who share their unique perspectives on how built environments, facilities management, and inclusive design contribute to better educational outcomes.
In this episode, we dive into the foundational levels of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs - both the Physiological needs and the Safety needs. Including how clean air, water, shelter, lighting, accessibility, and secure circulation all contribute to the creation of both real safety and also the perception of safety, which can be equally as important. Our experts share real stories from their years in the field of instances of these sorts of challenges that they had to address. Examples include motion-sensor lighting and fencing to address hidden, dark campus areas, and learning lessons in HVAC/air-quality, such as HEPA filtration balanced against staffing and lifecycle maintenance constraints.
The group highlights crime prevention through environmental design, district design standards, and joint collaboration among architects, builders, facilities, and campus police to ensure constructability, code compliance, and maintainability without accidentally creating “bunker-like” spaces in the process.
Episode Guide:
The Student Success: Built by Design is a production of San Diego Community College District and is produced by University FM.
Safety as the foundation of SDCCD facilities
06:19: [Aurora Ayala] The foundation of everything that we do, from the interview of the architects that we want to select. That is literally what our chancellor looks like. How will you incorporate design? How will you think of the design when you're thinking of design? Like, how do you incorporate safety? And by that, it's minimizing hidden spots by proper lighting, minimize how to install cameras by how you place the common areas so that there can be line of sight. When we're looking at where we place trees, when they're fully grown, are they going to obstruct lighting? Do we put bollard lighting? Do we put wall stanchions? JJust, like, everything that we think about from the beginning of a program, we're thinking of the safety of the students.
On designing campuses students feel they belong
24:43: [Auro Ayala] What we want is our students to know that this is their area, their community, and if there's anyone that's there, it is because they're there for the same purpose, to take a course, to take advantage of our community college and the community environment that we've worked so hard for.
Student success is built on meeting the human needs
04:42: [Dr. Joel Peterson] Student success is built upon a foundation of meeting the underlying human needs that must be met, or to the extent that we don't meet them, it can get in the way of student success. And at the very basic level are just the most physiologically necessary components. We all must breathe. We need air, and we need clean air. We need to have water and food. We need to have shelter. And those things get brought into the very basic level of design.
[00:00:00] Jeff Johnson: Student Success Built by Design, expanding the human potential for today's students. Welcome to Student Success Built by Design. In this podcast, we explore the fundamental question of how the built environment impacts student success. We'll showcase specific design and build achievements of the San Diego Community College District's $3.5 billion Bond Measure HH, whose goal is to further our education and student success mission by designing and constructing learning environments that don't simply host students, but elevate them academically, personally, and socially. Therefore, we design with a clear purpose and build with mission.
[00:00:45] Trailer: Previously on our podcast:
We define student success as a combination of academic, professional, personal, and social success. But these successes are, in part, driven by how well the range of human needs, from basic physical needs to self-fulfillment needs, are met. So, how the environment meets or misses these human needs at all levels impacts students’ success. This, then, can be the theoretical lens through which we examine the design and construction of San Diego’s CCD’s Bond project. The built environment is the foundation upon which students can be elevated academically, personally, and socially.
[00:01:29] Jeff Johnson: Welcome to our podcast on Student Success Built by Design. Today, we're discussing health and habitability, safety, and security. We'll be diving deeper into student success that we discussed in our first episode. We'll be engaging our panel in the first layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, physiological needs of shelter, food, water, and comfort. We'll explore the design of the built environment and how it can impact the student experience in their success.
So, just wanted to welcome back our guests, Dr. Joel Peterson, San Diego Community College District Vice Chancellor and Executive Operations Officer, Aurora Ayala, San Diego Community College District Associate Vice Chancellor for Facilities Risk Management and Operations, Jennifer Gibb, Van Pelt Construction Services Vice President, Business Development, and Andrea Stalker, PBK Architects Principal and Director of Higher Education, and myself, Jeff Johnson, PBK Architects Principal and Director of Design Educational Planning.
So, in our first episode, we were talking about defining student success, and we were talking about the personal element, where students' own wellness and their connection to their educational study. And social, starting to realize that education is interactive and community-based, where students are working together, and also professional, that understanding their studies of application that they're going into and the impact that that has on the community itself.
And so, with today, we wanted to talk a little bit more in detail about that first layer, health, habitability, safety, and security. So, today, we want to get into a little bit better understanding, defining what that is and its relationship to the built environment, and what that means for the next steps or for projects for the Measure HH. So, first, Dr. Peterson, what are your initial thoughts on health and habitability and safety and security, and how does that relate to our previous discussion on student success?
[00:03:31] Dr. Joel Peterson: Thanks, Jeff. You know, this is a fascinating part of designing and constructing. As we talked about, student success is built upon a foundation of meeting the underlying human needs that must be met, or to the extent that we don't meet them, it can get in the way of student success. And at the very basic level is just the most physiologically necessary components. We all must breathe. We need air, and we need clean air. We need to have water and food. We need to have shelter. And those things get brought into the very basic level of design. You and Andrea can speak much more to that, but also then on the maintainability of it. And then the layer above that comes into the safety and security.
What do we do to make sure that buildings are secure, that people can only get into the places that they should get into, that they don't accidentally get into mechanical spaces or potentially to unsecured spaces? So, I think this is going to be a fascinating discussion that we're going to have today, and I'm really looking forward to hearing the thoughts of other people.
[00:04:34] Jeff Johnson: Aurora, what are some of your thoughts?
[00:04:36] Aurora Ayala: I'm trying not to have too much of a facilities mindset, but I can't help it. When I'm thinking of a safe space for our students, I think of hidden hallways. I think of lights. I think of furniture, the placement. I think of accessibility from their car to their classroom and the proper lighting, the slope, and our pathways for some of our students that have mobility limitations. I go there for safety.
[00:05:06] Jeff Johnson: So, how does that relate to San Diego Community College and, you know, relating to safe and healthy facilities?
[00:05:13] Aurora Ayala: I hope it doesn't sound like it's fake, but it's literally the foundation of everything that we do, from the interview of the architects that we want to select. That is literally what our chancellor looks like. How will you incorporate design? How will you think of the design when you're thinking of design? Like, how do you incorporate safety? And by that, it's minimizing hidden spots by proper lighting, minimize how to install cameras by how you place the common areas so that there can be line of sight.
When we're looking at where we place trees, when they're fully grown, are they going to obstruct lighting? Do we put bollard lighting? Do we put wall stanchions? Just, like, everything that we think about from the beginning of a program, we're thinking of the safety of the students.
[00:06:00] Dr. Joel Peterson: One of the key things is that we have, for instance, in all of our programming and design meetings and discussions with all the final stakeholder groups, but included in that, we have a dedicated police lieutenant from our police department that is focused just on the bonds. And so, he attends all these meetings and looks at it through this sort of a safety and security lens.
And in fact, Aurora is probably being modest, too, but she spearheaded a whole concept that we want to incorporate into our bond program, a specific study focused on illumination so that we can look at interior and exterior illumination, initially from a code compliance, but then beyond that to what would be the best practices to enhance safety. And then lastly, what would be the best things to enhance the perception of safety? Because we all know that, you know, you can make something that the engineers all say is very safe, but different people have different perceptions and different kinds of experiences. So, that's the initiative that Aurora suggested and that we have incorporated into our bond program.
[00:07:07] Jeff Johnson: And that's great. How have you seen some of the impacts or effects from the student experience? Have you seen differences where lighting or certain elements, like you're talking about?
[00:07:19] Aurora Ayala: I can think of a recent example. Now, with our Measure HH, we're able to do some pretty aggressive and simple changes. We recently had one of our community colleges where we had people that were homeless coming into the campus, and it was a very hidden area, very dark. It was hard to regulate. And we did a simple fix with the fencing, but what we also did is we put motion sensor lighting.
And so, now the students knew that, and our police department, if there's a light on, someone's there. But it also gave our students now a safe place where they can go, and this was part of a landscape project that they can now know that they can go safely and be planting. It's an agriculture area without running the risk of running into someone. So, it's a simple thing, but the motion sensor lighting provided safety not only to our students, but our police, like, they now know that there's someone there.
[00:08:18] Jeff Johnson: So, the idea of perception, you know, sometimes, like you say, they're really simple. Jennifer, so, what are some of the best practices that we've seen, like, kind of, in a construction unit, we talked about fencing, that relate to safety and security on the campus?
[00:08:33] Jennifer Gibb: I think that understanding the needs, like Aurora and Dr. Peterson were stating, and then making sure that we can actually build it right from a safety perspective. And so, how do people feel safe? And then, are we going to be able to actually build it? Is it going to be maintainable? And I know from a safety standpoint, from the construction side, it's like, it can be designed really well. Andrea and Jeff, you guys can design it really great. We can think that it's going to work, but then can we build it? Can we afford to build it? Can we afford to maintain it? Will it meet the schedule? All of those kinds of things from the construction standpoint, I think, are important to think about.
And so, what we're going through that process with our design team and the stakeholders, it's really understanding, like Aurora was saying, is this going to be the best process, the best solution? What do we currently have? Are we reviewing that? Because what was put in place was, at the time, the best at that time, right? And now we're upgrading it, and we're getting a new process in place, and maybe there are updated standards.
And so, going through that and making sure that we're thoughtful about it is really important, because it's not necessarily, "Hey, this is safe." How does it make the user feel? Does the user really, truly feel safe? Like Aurora was saying, when they have that lighted pathway, can I get back to my car after class and feel safe getting home? That's really important.
[00:10:03] Dr. Joel Peterson: Jennifer, your comments remind me of an actual incident that I had at a higher ed institution where the designers had designed for the main stairway for the three-story computer science building that we were building and designing.
And during the whole sort of buildability study and looking at materiality and what we could do for value engineering, the construction company was the one that, kind of, pointed this out, that you had a steel staircase that was going to be then tied to a handrail that was going to be aluminum, and that the washer that they were putting in between the two was inadequate, that they had a polymer washer, but it really needed to be a much more robust kind of a rubberized base. Otherwise, we were going to be looking at bimetallic corrosion that would start very quickly, and then you would have that situation where the handrail would become unstable within just a year or two. And that was an example of, sort of, a core safety thing that was dependent on literally the nuts and bolts of the design and the specifications.
One thing I know that, Andrea, you, you know, specialize in, sort of, equitable design on a lot of fronts, and maybe we could turn back a little bit. I know that during the pandemic, there was a lot of focus on environmental health and literally the air quality, as well as other kind of components that are very basic, in the water and surfaces that we have. And I know a lot of technologies seem to come out, some that I think seem to have maybe gone by the wayside. But maybe you can speak to the evolving nature at this very basic level, even before we talk more on safety and security.
[00:11:44] Andrea Stalker: Sure, absolutely. And preface it by saying I'm not a mechanical engineer, so the architect's version of this. But I think one of the things that we saw stick coming out of the pandemic was really the HEPA filtration for the air handling systems, right? And just understanding that at these higher levels of filtration, we're just getting cleaner, better air, and that there's, sort of, a sweet spot with the cost about what is too far and dialing that back, but enhanced from what we would have done pre-pandemic. And there's value in having those conversations early on and really creating clean, healthy interior environments. And much as sustainability and LEED has been looking at doing for many years now, but having that indoor air quality at that highest level that we can within the cost constraints of the project.
And so, I think that's one of the ones that stuck. I think there's a lot of other technology that had to do, you know, like UV this or some of that sort of stuff that we've really seen, kind of, go by the wayside, that I think was one of those fads that, you know, you tried, everyone was like, "Okay, well, that wasn't appropriate," and now we've, kind of, landed on these ones that we hope will be integrated into all projects in the future.
[00:12:48] Dr. Joel Peterson: I remember they had... What was that? The ionization kind of things-
[00:12:53] Andrea Stalker: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:12:53].
[00:12:54] Dr. Joel Peterson: ... and there was a lot of controversy on whether that actually made any sense. But some of this technology adds challenges on the maintenance side, because when you have the HEPA filters, then, you know, maybe Aurora, you have some experience in this.
[00:13:07] Aurora Ayala: Literally, as Andrea was talking about the HEPA filters, I'm like, "Oh gosh, don't promote it," because it is a challenge. I mean, it is fantastic. It gives you that sense that you have good, clean air, but now facilities has to replace those filters along with the filters that we already have to replace on our air handlers. And as we know in public works, sometimes we don't have the human resources that we need to maintain the facilities that we have. So, adding that additional layer just adds additional costs that we just can't keep up with.
[00:13:44] Andrea Stalker: It's so important to have these conversations early on in the design process, really as part of a larger, like, lifecycle cost analysis, because as much as we want to provide these clean, healthy environments, if down the road you can't maintain it and it leads to a dirtier environment in the long run, then we need to design those systems upfront, right, to align with your needs.
[00:14:04] Aurora Ayala: One of the features of the design that I found that I prefer is natural ventilation that has a sensor that turns off the HVAC system, so we don't have redundancy. But then you need to have a controlled area, whether it's a classroom or it's an office, which is an upfront construction cost, but not a long-term maintenance cost.
[00:14:25] Jeff Johnson: This was a great discussion. My brother's a doctor and works for CDC, so when COVID came out, it's like, we ended up presenting together. Like, I would have thought never that we'd, as a, you know, doctor and architect, but the idea of, like, how do we redesign thinking of healthcare, you know, and to this point, like the air filtration and what gets into the air or stopping it from getting... But then there's other things like the surfaces and even certain textures and certain materials are better and worse. So, to that point, Andrea, as we design spaces, what other areas of design that, you know, do we need to really look at as far as protective, safe environments?
[00:15:08] Dr. Joel Peterson: We're actually dealing with something right now as part of our Measure HH program. One of the projects is an HVAC upgrade for one of our gymnasiums at City College, and in the original design and what was constructed, I can almost guess what happened. So, there is no air conditioning in this gymnasium.
[00:15:31] Jeff Johnson: Oh.
[00:15:31] Dr. Joel Peterson: Plenty of ventilation, lots of airflow. CFM is through the roof, literally. But what happened is that we're having all sorts of condensation. We've been having this for decades, where you get condensation on the gym floor, it becomes very slick, so we've got extra fans, and we have to go and have custodians go out there and constantly dry off the gymnasium floor, et cetera.
And I can bet what happened is that somebody looked up in the tables on what the climate was quantified as, and San Diego in general is a desert climate, and they probably looked up the wet bulb and the dry bulb temperatures and found that, "Oh, you know, we don't need to have air conditioning because it's so dry and the dew point is so low, you're not going to have an issue." But the reality is that City College is located within less than a mile of the harbor, and so you get this cool air, and it's in a lower, kind of, position, so it gets this cool, moist air that comes in, and even though the greater area. So, I can just bet that's what happened in design, but I just thought I'd share that while Andrea can discuss further on other kind of design elements.
[00:16:40] Andrea Stalker: Well, I think that's a great example of as we think of safety in maybe three different ways, and that's not only improving the health of the environment, but also for the physical safety of students, right? And so, that's, sort of, one category, and then that second one being the security, or, you know, people's access and crime prevention.
And I think it's so great that, as a district, your guys' guidelines and standards include a whole chapter on crime prevention through environmental design, which is a policy that's long been adopted, but you guys have taken a step further to go through and list very specific measures, and not every district has that. And so, to have that at a starting point is fantastic, and I love that.
In that, you included the four key metrics of natural surveillance, natural access control, target hardening, and then my favorite as an architect is territorial management. And this goes to the idea that if you can define a space such that people take ownership of it, they're then more likely, in that ownership and sense of community, to be aware of, like, when there are intruders and to notify.
But that's a very nebulous thing about how do you say we're going to do that, create a sense of territory and ownership. And I think that's where architecture can play a great role in designing spaces that feel culturally relevant and welcoming, and give people a sense of belonging so that they do take that ownership. And in doing that, then we can help with this crime prevention through environmental design.
[00:18:00] Jeff Johnson: Joel, to that point with those policies that Andrea explained so well, what was behind that policy making, and how do you see that, kind of, being played out through the projects?
[00:18:13] Dr. Joel Peterson: Key part is that we looked at a number of research studies in this area about what can we do with design and then the materials we use, and then how even it's been physically manifested through the construction of it. That environment impacts behaviors. It's, kind of, an extension of the broken window thing, you know, that, so, how do we make sure that design promotes certain kinds of behaviors? Our police department, all of our police chiefs and lieutenants, are trained in that sort of environment, helping to reduce, you know, crime components.
We looked at studies like there's a famous one done by the Washington, D.C. Metro Rail that, without doing any change other than to change the environment, the lighting, the kind of benches they had, the kind of shelters, et cetera, they were able to reduce crime rates 40% simply by-
[00:19:07] Jeff Johnson: Wow.
[00:19:08] Dr. Joel Peterson: ... doing passive environmental change. And I would love to get Jennifer's thought on this one. Part of when we talk about how we can construct for our student housing, one of the things that the original design team had wanted to do was to create surfaces that were going to be unwelcoming for urban camping, and so they were going to get a double kind of thing by using the broken concrete from the demoing of the site to then put that into an avant-garde, rock-garden-looking thing around.
It was our builder team who said, "Hey, we're going to have to try to figure out how to stick that in there and then how they would have to be lodged in so they couldn't be easily removed, because, you know, if they come loose and so forth, now they become things that can be thrown through windows and things like that." And at the same time, they looked awfully jagged, and people might think we're being a little too aggressive in our passive repellent. But I thought it was fantastic that it was actually the builder team that brought that kind of concept up, that it's fine to design it and maybe put it initially, but how do you make sure that you can put it in so that it stays?
[00:20:18] Jennifer Gibb: Absolutely. I think safety, not only while we're building it, but after the fact, right? People walking over it, a path of travel isn't always what is designed, right? And so, even if it's a deterrent for unhoused or, you know, others to occupy, it might have been a better path of travel per that one student, and then they trip, and now you have a liability that way from a safety standpoint.
So, stuff like that, thinking we've seen it because it's, kind of, more on the active job site side of it. Like all of the challenges we have from design, you know, groundbreaking till when we can occupy, there's a lot of hazards. And so, we see them before they even happen sometimes. It's a great idea. I think it's just hard to. We had that situation with a, there were some larger boulders that were in a design that would be really great for, kind of, similar to what you were saying, Dr. Peterson. It was just a design aspect and ended up not meeting a different code that was being requested from a permitting process. So, they were beautiful to look at, but then, from a practicality, we couldn't finalize the permitting on this project that I was working on. And so, we actually had to remove them.
And so, again, it was push, push, push. That thought was the design. And then, during when they're getting placed, we're like, "Are you sure?" Everybody said, "Nope, we want them." And then when we went to permit it, it was, we had to take them out. So, it's, kind of, just that forethought from experience, right? You already saw it happen that one time. So, yes, every community's different. Measure HH is different, and we have done this before. Let's not do it again is, kind of, the goal.
[00:22:03] Jeff Johnson: Well, that's where creativity can be a good thing, but then, depending on how creative, you know, there's a checks and balances. I was wondering with Aurora, some of them were talking about these guidelines and studies. What have you seen the most impact on these student experience, you know, HVAC and lighting and these kind of things?
[00:22:22] Aurora Ayala: I think we're pretty fortunate that we established a lot of our guidelines and our standards of design as we knew Measure HH was coming on. We have a manual now that we use, that we give to our architects. These are standards. These are the specifications of products that we want you to incorporate into our design, and it goes down to the type of blue light that we want, the door closures that we want. We don't want doors to be left open. We want our students to know that when a door's closed, it's locked.
So, there's certain things that we've already, we've done the homework to make sure it's incorporated to design. But Dr. Peterson was talking about getting creative with design to keep the guests that we want there and the guests that we don't want there, to keep them moving. We've actually put that thought into our landscape specifications, folders, where we want them, the type of landscape that we want, and we're thinking about, you know, sustainability, some of our native plants, the ones that we want intentionally in design that help keep some of our passing visitors to continue passing.
[00:23:33] Jeff Johnson: You know, a thing you want to nest in. Yeah.
[00:23:36] Aurora Ayala: So, I mean, at the end, what we want is our students to know that this is their area, their community, and if there's anyone that's there, it is because they're there for the same purpose, to take a course, to take advantage of our community college and the community environment that we've worked so hard for.
[00:23:54] Dr. Joel Peterson: One of the things that we found, not just the safety of our students, but for our staff and particularly our maintenance staff, that as part of what we're doing to modernize our facilities through Measure HH is basic safety components, such as we're finding a lot of our roofs don't have tie-off hard points. So, when we have to go up and do maintenance, repair the roof, or to do cleaning, you know, getting things out of downspouts, you know, we want to think about our safety staff, our custodians, our maintenance people. And so, those are the kind of components as well that if you don't design them in, you know, we found that out through Aurora's maintenance and operations teams on where we were missing these things.
[00:24:36] Jeff Johnson: It just comes to the point that a lot of these things, there's certain things that work and certain things that don't, standards. So, it's, you know, evidence-based design. So, Andrea, why are these so critical that, you know, we're not testing new things, but we're actually using evidence-based?
[00:24:52] Andrea Stalker: Well, I think it's important to understand that there is an evolution that's happening as it comes to particularly where we have security or then the perception of safety and security, and that the more we recognize that different individuals perceive safety and security in different ways, it's important for us to test some of these long standard policies or procedures.
And I think of the idea of natural surveillance, which would tell us that quite a lot of transparency and visual sight lines is nothing but good. But I've also talked to some students who say that being in that type of fishbowl environment can feel very unsafe to them because it puts them very much on display, makes them feel watched. For some women students, it can make them feel like they could become targeted and followed and, you know, all these things.
And so, for me, it is an evolution and one that we always want to just keep testing what we have been doing, making sure that we're getting input from a wide variety of people, individuals, the perspectives, so that it's safe not just based on what we've done before in the past, but will be safe and secure for the current and future students going forward.
[00:25:56] Jeff Johnson: These are great topics. I mean, we're bringing up a lot of important things, and it's great that we're getting them out. I was wondering, Dr. Peterson, how do we, kind of, prioritize with these concepts, and how do they evolve themselves into the projects that you're working on, and what's critical?
[00:26:13] Dr. Joel Peterson: Well, what's wonderful is that, you know, these are situations and topics and issues that have been around for, you know, millennia. And so, we stand on the shoulders of people who stand on the shoulders of the people who stand all the way back. The building code itself has actually solved much of this for us. So, my concern is less about that we're going to miss something that covers clean water and safe environments, and clean air and environments that will feel safe and secure and be actually safe and secure. But it comes down to how we can take what the building code requires of us and do it in a way that then doesn't preclude higher-level needs.
So, you know, as an example, you know, a prison, I'm sure, has clean water and clean air and is very secure and very safe in many ways. However, it may dampen creativity and may, you know, limit socialization and a sense of belonging and ownership and a sense of, you know, enfranchisement and self-actualization. So, the challenge here is how can we make sure that we maximize that physical layer of health and habitability and that second layer of safety and security, and not preclude and/or minimize other human needs that ultimately are required for our students to become successful.
[00:27:41] Jeff Johnson: Are there any particular hurdles, you know, in infusing, you had mentioned, like, code is actually taking care of a lot of things, but then being creative with the constraints? Are there any...
[00:27:51] Dr. Joel Peterson: So, we did... As there's an example that I could point to at our affordable student housing construction that we're doing right now that will be for about 800 students, 284 units that are apartment-style. And the front entrance originally was going to be just, kind of, open and very welcoming, very transparent glass, and so forth. One was, we made it a two-door rather than just a one-door into the lobby. And one of the things that we talked about was designing to have a distance enough between the two doors so that somebody couldn't just follow somebody else in, that, you know, a person could get through one and the other person, but to be enough time and distance that the individual, if they knew they were being followed, had opportunity to get into the other or a way to not go in.
And then even before then, we then said, you know, it'd be nice if we had sort of a security gate of some kind, but how do you make it not look like a gate? And the design team came up with a very creative way of having, sort of, slatted steel, but, you know, that were going to be decorative in nature so that it blended in with the style of the campus, and that it had visibility and slats so it didn't look like it was just a wall, but it gave a solid physical barrier that could not be climbed over, because the area that we have does have a significant number of people who are, you know, having issues with mental health and housing and so forth.
So, that's an example of where I got to see firsthand our design team being very creative and responsive to the concerns that the overall team, the end users, as well as our safety and security people, brought forth as potential concerns.
[00:29:36] Jeff Johnson: And so, Andrea, as we talk about design and integration and constructability, like Joel was talking about, how do we work these things as they were intended? They don't seem like security. They're just a natural part. How does that work?
[00:29:50] Andrea Stalker: Yeah. And it's all about achieving the right balance, right? And recognizing what are the goals and what are those higher goals, and how do we, as Dr. Peterson said, not construct or design something that's going to minimize those higher goals while still achieving these fundamental physiological and safety and security needs. And I think that's really through iteration and exploration and working collaboratively with everyone from very early on, including the district and stakeholders and the builder, as we've learned here, to identify the right washer or how it's going to be attached and all of that. And so, it's really by bringing everyone together early on to look at all these things that you arrive at a design solution that meets them.
You asked what are some of the hurdles that we face, and I always caution us that we don't want to let that hurdle of fear, like, overcome the end result, right? And sometimes it's easy to be fearful of the active shooter situation or just, you know, all these horrible things that could happen, or that we could get lost in that we should absolutely design and prepare for it, but not to the extent, as Dr. Peterson is saying, that we're building a bunker that doesn't then also meet our goals around health and habitability and creativity and socialization and all these other elements. So, finding that right balance, always aligned with the district's goals, budget, cost, all those extra things that go along with it.
[00:31:07] Jeff Johnson: It seems like the collaboration and teamwork, you know, bringing, infusing all these things in together and making it seem natural. I was wondering, Jennifer, working through owner and architect, you know, some of the operations and systems or procedures that keep this collaborative and creative, but then realistic, what are some of those in place that you have?
[00:31:28] Jennifer Gibb: Yeah, I think that's really key. I think when Andrea was speaking, it's like just being able to pivot. And the main one, it sounds more simple than it needs to be, but it's communication, right? Constantly working together, meeting, talking through ideas, not being afraid to come to the table with those. Again, we're all experts in our own way, and so really the team is bringing forth those experiences and ideas, and creative solutions.
And so, yes, there's different tools that we're using to track and stay collaborative and keep, you know, the schedule on and budget on and different, you know, systems. But I think ultimately it comes down to being open to communicate and remembering why we're here, and it's for the betterment of our community, the students, the safety of our students, and our team building, and really being thoughtful about that and the long-term investment that Measure HH and the community can do.
So, I think, again, coming down to some of the most basic things, just talking.
[00:32:35] Dr. Joel Peterson: Jennifer, I'm curious to maybe hear a little bit of your thoughts on... Because we're taking it for granted when we say, "Well, what does the builder do?" We are talking a lot about, "Oh, well, you design for this, and you design for that," but we're just assuming that what is designed actually gets built. And I had a project at one of my other institutions that I was at, where the general contractor ended up in long litigation, and ultimately, you know, decades later, the only people that won were the lawyers.
But what happened was that they used cheaper materials than what was specified, and then any places that could not be easily inspected, they went ahead and actually didn't even build it to the full thing, and, you know, it didn't have all the bolts or didn't have all the kind of things. And so, maybe you could speak a little bit to, as a builder, what do you do to ensure that all your subcontractors and the various trades and so forth are actually executing on what the design intent was and the materials?
[00:33:35] Jennifer Gibb: That's a great topic. We actually, today it came up on a project, and not to the detail on the subcontractor side, but we were looking at the specs versus the plans, and they're two different products spec'd out and/or specified. And the one in the spec was cost-friendly. It met the budget, and then the plans, it was a lot more expensive.
And these were outdoor site furnishings, and it was like it was a concrete table versus a metal, you know, sitting table for our community. And did it provide the same aspects and/or space for students to learn, break, et cetera? Yes, but one was extremely more expensive than the other.
Even to that easy, you know, just looking at doing constructability, looking at your specs, looking at your plans, ensuring that the subcontractors or we're pricing out all of that, it just takes that time to go through. And so, we will get our pricing from our subs, and then we'll do bid leveling. We'll make sure that everybody is, you know, apples to apples on that, on whatever the project component is. And then, if for some reason an item is, a subcontractor is more or one is less, we're evaluating that to make sure that we're getting the product and they aren't skimping.
And so, then it also goes back to when you're actually building it, being out there and the entire team making sure, so from owner's advisor, the client, and the contractor managing those sub and trade partners to make sure that the community is, again, getting their money's worth. And that's just our job. We do it. I mean, it seems, again, oversimplified, but you've got to be active. You've got to be watching it, making sure that everything, you can really build what you priced out.
And I think sometimes when you have those cutting corners, it's potentially maybe even the delivery method, right, that can impact it as well. Having a partner in a design-build versus a hard bid, those are where you're seeing some sacrifices come through. Sometimes, if you're doing a design-bid-build, you're getting lowest price as opposed to some of the efforts that Measure HH is putting through on the larger projects with the design-build process, really having a collaborative team of designers and builders coming together, bringing that value and being able to bring the best components to the team. And so, that's what we do throughout the process.
[00:36:09] Dr. Joel Peterson: Andrea and Jeff, you may be more familiar with this, but it speaks to a lot of Aurora's area and concerns that she has, which is if you can't maintain it or that it's so difficult to get at, then it can turn into a safety issue and health. I think the most famous one of these, there was a case in, I want to say in the Netherlands or maybe it was Germany, where there had been a pool, a community pool that was built, and they had a hanging ceiling, and they had used a certain type of steel, standard steel J-hook kind of thing, and it was deemed to be the absolute best. The engineers had all done this. And because you had it in a hanging ceiling, it was impossible to get up there and inspect, and people weren't concerned about it because it had been built only like 10 years ago or something, and then it had a catastrophic failure. The whole ceiling collapsed, and it ended up killing a whole lot of, unfortunately, children.
And what it turned out was that the relatively moist environment of these pools and the chlorine that was in the atmosphere with it actually ended up penetrating, this was stainless steel J-bolts, but there were tiny little cracks that could happen, and the chlorine could get into that and then create micro fissures, and over time they ended up failing and creating a chain reaction. But it goes to Aurora's often comments, saying, you know, yes, in the management consulting world, they say, "If you can't measure, you can't manage it." In the M&O world, if you can't inspect it, if you can't put eyes on it, it ultimately is going to be a failure for safety and/or security.
[00:37:51] Andrea Stalker: I tell you, every time now I'm thinking design decision, I always hear Aurora's voice in the back of my head going, "But could we maintain it?" And it's like the best success yet out of this conversation.
[00:38:01] Jeff Johnson: I mean, it's that point that how design, you know, having the greatest ideas, intent, but then how is it actually maintained if you can't see it? We had a similar situation of a school. Luckily, the collapse happened in the summer when kids weren't there, but the entire campus, they had to shut down. They had to move them, and we had to rebuild part of that campus. And it was to the point, you know, Jennifer was talking about, just because you get a low bid, there might be a reason, and, you know, are they qualified? Is it a collaborative team, like design-build can give you a lot of accountability between each other to find the best value for what you need?
I think with that, you know, Andrea, as we're talking about this overall process, what are some of the critical first steps when we're pulling together all this habitability and safety issues?
[00:38:52] Andrea Stalker: It always starts with San Diego CCD's guidelines and design standards. So, and the fact that they've already done all this pre-work is phenomenal. And so, just making sure everyone's familiar with it. But I also think reviewing it for the specific application to each project and then understanding if there are additional goals beyond those, especially when it comes to safety and security or the perception of safety and security, and making sure that everyone is on board with this right balancing act of what are the pros and cons of the different approaches and how can they be weighed.
And not just leadership, but your stakeholders and your end users, and making sure that they have buy-off and, kind of, signed onto the approach for safety and security and that it will meet their needs going forward, and doing that as early as possible, and then keep coming back to everyone, because it does come down to not just the big moves, but the little moves, and sort of carrying that all the way through the design, all the way through material selection specification, and to Jennifer's point, making sure then that it's the thing that's getting built in the field. So, it's really about a continuous process that's happening from beginning to end.
[00:39:53] Jeff Johnson: Well, this is phenomenal. This has been a great discussion. I really appreciate all of our guests. Thank you for everybody being here, and just wanted to thank the listeners for participating here, and wanted to invite you to our next session. Student Success Built by Design. We'll be taking a deeper dive into social needs, belonging, connectivity, community. We'll be exploring these, some case studies of student-based, equity-based design process and outcomes of impacts on the built environment.
Thanks for joining our podcast, Student Success Built by Design. This series is brought to you by San Diego Community College District and its Measure HH Bond Program, whose goal is to further our education and student success mission. We'll see you next time.
Measure HH is a $3.5 billion voter-approved capital improvement bond program at the San Diego Community College District. Transforming its 10 campuses, which are housed in four separate colleges that collectively enroll 90,000 students annually, Measure HH will impact nearly 1 million students in its first 10 years.